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olddog
路人甲乙丙

Taiwan
1936 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2010 :  19:23:46  會員資料 Send olddog a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by MACOS8
[br
至於陸軍的部分:

該建的建案一堆: 小砲、50槍、欉樹飛彈、M42汰換案,另外再加肩射防空飛彈.... (骨董)甚麼都有,(新裝備)甚麼都沒有
已經有的新裝備不是數量不夠(復仇者),就是機動性不足(DMS)
勤儉建軍是吧..唉....



請不要忘記陸軍即將面對的兩大錢坑---對,就是那兩個會飛的錢坑.....

其實還有一個隱藏版的錢坑: CH-47 的維修費一直也是不低地....以前的 B234 也是....

Edited by - olddog on 10/19/2010 19:42:39
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Steve Su
路人甲乙丙

2195 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2010 :  23:08:36  會員資料 Send Steve Su a Private Message
記得陸軍復仇數量少是唐飛當部長時要陸軍改採購捷羚。
如果報導屬實,那陸軍野戰防空的問題就是自己搞出來的囉。
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MACOS8
路人甲乙丙

3316 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  01:03:36  會員資料 Send MACOS8 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by gera


以目前新編的捷羚/T82混砲連來看.空軍應該會採天兵(35快砲+麻雀)/捷羚(陸劍一+T82)混編的方式來防護機場,形成彈彈砲砲防衛圈.
天兵系統的雷達,並沒有傳出什麼缺點,不太瞭解為何要盡快更新?



原因在ECCM能力差異。原廠都已經發展到第三代了,我們可能還在用第一代。
這兩者的ECCM能力差別挺明顯的。
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ccclibg
新手上路

183 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  01:31:46  會員資料 Send ccclibg a Private Message
ECCM這種東西是樹大招風
要更新到第三代因為他有buger
我們沒有為何要更新
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MACOS8
路人甲乙丙

3316 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  02:30:26  會員資料 Send MACOS8 a Private Message
關於天兵的雷達,請順手參照一則古老的傳說: 布替虛與艾及提那合著的福客島戰記,火神篇,第一卷。

至於福客島戰記中,獵鷹與海鷹兩兄弟的故事就有點不同了,有一說是當時獵鷹脖子上有戴"憂鬱的艾利克"項鍊,海鷹脖子上沒有帶;另一說是"憂鬱的艾利克"當時鐵匠來不及改size,所以大小改好送過去時已經太晚了...


Edited by - MACOS8 on 10/20/2010 02:46:50
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  08:52:13  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message
Wasn't that Skyguard battery with GDF-001 and GDF-002 killed more of their own than Sea Harriers at Goose Green in the Falklands War?
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MACOS8
路人甲乙丙

3316 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  10:58:45  會員資料 Send MACOS8 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan C

Wasn't that Skyguard battery with GDF-001 and GDF-002 killed more of their own than Sea Harriers at Goose Green in the Falklands War?


http://wapedia.mobi/en/Battle_of_Goose_Green
Are you talking about C company and 35mm AA-gun? What a good friendly fire...
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  11:39:05  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message
I meant a few of the Pucarás and A-4 Skyhawk were shotdown by the 35mm AAA guns at Goose Green, while they only shotdown 1 Sea Harrier....
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dasha
版主

41508 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  12:17:13  會員資料 Send dasha a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ccclibg

ECCM這種東西是樹大招風
要更新到第三代因為他有buger
我們沒有為何要更新



人家更新到奔騰以上的硬體時,我們還在用4040(後來8080/8086/8088等系統的祖先),那......?

吉屋出售
台北縣板橋市大觀路一二樓公寓,接近國小至大學各級學校及公車總站,離捷運及板橋車站不遠.
詳情請洽0931043559田小姐
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toga
版主

Tajikistan
12538 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  12:58:46  會員資料 Send toga a Private Message
性能升級可能還是相對次要的問題,最大的問題可能在於若不與時俱進的話,等到你家的1980年代製第一代天兵雷達哪天發生故障,需要叫修更換零件,結果卻發現你需要的是多拉A夢時光機相助時(現在上哪去找新造1980年代製相關電子軟硬體原件??),歹誌就大條了........

一萌二PAK三聯閃,四代歐風五國潘,十全側衛百戰鷹,成千蟲隼萬國繁。

Edited by - toga on 10/20/2010 13:04:11
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  13:34:02  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message
But, PLA already got 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation of the radar system and guns, and are producing them. So why would ROCAF wants to improve and upgrade exact same air defense systems that the enemy already know it inside out and practice against it already in their exercises?
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MACOS8
路人甲乙丙

3316 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  14:03:32  會員資料 Send MACOS8 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan C

But, PLA already got 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation of the radar system and guns, and are producing them. So why would ROCAF wants to improve and upgrade exact same air defense systems that the enemy already know it inside out and practice against it already in their exercises?


Yes and NO.
PLA's Type-90 35mm twin-gun is based on the Oerlikon GDF-002 version that they imported several units in 1980s. This AA-Gun is connection to Chinese-made Type 902 fire control radar system which is improved from the Oerlikon Skyguard I/II system. So far we have no news about PLA got the newer version of Skyguard-III system, that is developed after 2002.

That is the reason I wish Taiwan could upgrade their Skyguard system to the newest version. Not only because the gun preforms better, but also the radar is different than PLA's version.

Reference:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Div-ADS.html
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4185.html (I believe this words are from sinodefence..)
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/antiaircraft/type90towed35mm.asp

Edited by - MACOS8 on 10/20/2010 14:09:37
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  14:54:01  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message
If they exported Skyguard-I and II systems to PLA, they will export III not too far in the future. ROCAF might as well cut their losses and move on to something else new. No need to keep using the 30 years old Skyguard systems(entered service in 1980), or keep on rebuilt the almost 20 years old 500 RIM-7M Sparrow missiles in the inventory that was introduced back in 1991......
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gera
路人甲乙丙

5386 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  16:27:56  會員資料 Send gera a Private Message
1.中科院的MPQ78與天兵雷達車是同一個模子出來的,只是前者是1990年代產品.

2.有消失性商源,就得找替代性商源.中華民國國軍可能是少數十分習慣原廠消失不見的軍隊,這問題不大.

3.快砲類的選擇.升級35快砲或選擇T-92 40快砲,後者也是有模擬攔截巡弋飛彈.
空軍選擇升級35快砲,沒將整個防砲包括雷達,彈藥更新...反正就是這樣了.....
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Steve Su
路人甲乙丙

2195 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2010 :  23:22:38  會員資料 Send Steve Su a Private Message
CS/MPQ-78可以不用提了。
我是比較關切CS/MPQ-90的後續發展,好像也沒有後續消息。

至於T92四零砲註定不會量產,也不用多題。
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MACOS8
路人甲乙丙

3316 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  02:09:26  會員資料 Send MACOS8 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan C

If they exported Skyguard-I and II systems to PLA, they will export III not too far in the future. ROCAF might as well cut their losses and move on to something else new. No need to keep using the 30 years old Skyguard systems(entered service in 1980), or keep on rebuilt the almost 20 years old 500 RIM-7M Sparrow missiles in the inventory that was introduced back in 1991......



1. There are not many choices on the market for the automatic AA-gun system, especially the good and reliable one. Skyguard, Skyshield, Skyranger are all come from the same company, and US dose not have suitable product for the market.

2. Since China is now building their own 35mm anti-air system and exports to other countries, I doubt if Swiss is still willing to sell the advanced system to them anymore. Also, this system may still need to follow the EU Arms embargo if its subsystems is not coming from Swiss itself.

3. We still have A LOT of AIM-7 that are only about 10+ years old..

4. Unless there is a AA system that is comparable to the Skyguard, or preforms better than Skyguard, I don't think ROCAF will retire it soon. Antelope simply can't replace the Skyguard at this moment due to its range and the AA-gun's firepower.

Edited by - MACOS8 on 10/21/2010 02:12:51
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dasha
版主

41508 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  11:13:47  會員資料 Send dasha a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan C

If they exported Skyguard-I and II systems to PLA, they will export III not too far in the future.


我們買的是GDF-001,老共買的是GDF-002,但這都是火砲,雷達系統是另一套東西,純機械式的東西用同一套的問題沒那麼嚴重,更何況歐盟的軍火禁運還沒解除.
陸基防空炮其實蠻少的,近年來有些新案子是拿艦基的來用,不過銷售狀況很不樂觀,因為船上用的習慣了那種大空間,搬到陸地上就是經常被覺得太大太貴......然後這些貨在政治上台灣要取得,也更難.
如果不靠升級舊系統的話,美軍只有刺針衍生系列給你選,或者學美軍那樣靠空軍作為主力防空系統也可以......

吉屋出售
台北縣板橋市大觀路一二樓公寓,接近國小至大學各級學校及公車總站,離捷運及板橋車站不遠.
詳情請洽0931043559田小姐
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  13:45:13  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message
1. There's still 57mm and 76mm choice, just that if ROCAF and ROC Army wants to get into new systems.

2. Swiss will sell everything. I mean, they sold to PLA the Skyguard I and II after 1989 TAM.....

3. AIM-7M and RIM-7M might not interchangable....

4. T-92 40mm/L70 was a good start, but....

Heard rumors that CSIST is involved in some laser air defense system, 5-10km class. So, maybe we all can hope....
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MACOS8
路人甲乙丙

3316 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  14:44:49  會員資料 Send MACOS8 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan C

1. There's still 57mm and 76mm choice, just that if ROCAF and ROC Army wants to get into new systems.

2. Swiss will sell everything. I mean, they sold to PLA the Skyguard I and II after 1989 TAM.....

3. AIM-7M and RIM-7M might not interchangable....

4. T-92 40mm/L70 was a good start, but....

Heard rumors that CSIST is involved in some laser air defense system, 5-10km class. So, maybe we all can hope....



第一點跟第二點牽涉國際情勢,小弟不便多論。不過57mm跟76mm的體積與彈藥體積都不小,做為定點防空還好, 拉著跑就有持續力的問題了。
解放軍在89年後應該沒有再購買原廠的35快砲跟雷達(轉為自製),請問有消息出處嗎?

至於麻雀那不是問題。

T-92嘛... 老實說事出必有因..據說連零組件都有進口問題的東西真的是一個好的開始嗎?

最後一點, 以台灣地區平均的溼度與大氣狀態, 用雷射!? 嗯...部屬在高山雷達站的話大概一年有3/4年不能使用吧

Edited by - MACOS8 on 10/21/2010 14:48:00
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小毛
我是老鳥

Taiwan
9861 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2010 :  15:17:10  會員資料  Visit 小毛's Homepage Send 小毛 a Private Message
看看對岸的野戰防空(圖多),如果我們要抄美軍的野戰防空規畫,不知道哪來的有效空優....

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Div-ADS.html#mozTocId304546
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ID已刪除
路人甲乙丙

1507 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2010 :  00:44:44  會員資料 Send ID已刪除 a Private Message
不是我要澆冷水,只是妳們提的76砲或是其他傳統快砲過的可能性有多少?

大俠說了這些炮可以打比較遠射程也比較遠,立委問一句有飛彈還要這些炮做什麼?很現實喔,飛彈打的更遠呢,而且買飛彈聽起來比買炮好聽多了

至於我個人還是傾向進破式防空系統防空型的鋼鐵風暴,雷達數目?不是問題,雷達鎖迪瞄準也不是問題,他會自己瞄亂打也不是問題,一艘船的雷達有比地面多嗎?船隻高度比山高嗎?會亂打把那個性能降低就可以了,重要的是它可以攔飛彈其他的快砲辦不到
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HOTARU
路人甲乙丙

3577 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2010 :  01:17:08  會員資料 Send HOTARU a Private Message
自己查查不就知道了?76砲有十幾公里射程,龍式還是跟飛彈一樣有導引的,哪個野戰防空飛彈有超過這距離?
野戰防空系統受限於彈體跟小型雷達,本來就只防十公里上下區域,復仇者更是連五公里都沒有.
鋼鐵風暴全球沒有人用,有沒想過為什麼?
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2010 :  01:35:42  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by huangmin95

一艘船的雷達有比地面多嗎?


Yes. one single Mk 16 CIWS/R2D2 has 5 radars inside it, and some ships has 2 or more of the R2D2 on board.... A ship adding up all sort of radars might have 10+ radars on board.......
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ID已刪除
路人甲乙丙

1507 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2010 :  05:26:06  會員資料 Send ID已刪除 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan C

quote:
Originally posted by huangmin95

一艘船的雷達有比地面多嗎?


Yes. one single Mk 16 CIWS/R2D2 has 5 radars inside it, and some ships has 2 or more of the R2D2 on board.... A ship adding up all sort of radars might have 10+ radars on board.......


所以你的意思是全世界的地面雷達站不超過五座?含雷達車等各式雷達不超過五座?
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ID已刪除
路人甲乙丙

1507 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2010 :  05:53:37  會員資料 Send ID已刪除 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HOTARU

自己查查不就知道了?76砲有十幾公里射程,龍式還是跟飛彈一樣有導引的,哪個野戰防空飛彈有超過這距離?
野戰防空系統受限於彈體跟小型雷達,本來就只防十公里上下區域,復仇者更是連五公里都沒有.
鋼鐵風暴全球沒有人用,有沒想過為什麼?


SA-15

真的沒人用嗎?我看看後CIWS每軍台灣日本等多國使用,俄國的AK-630,荷蘭的守門員

不好用空軍會那麼無聊去拆海軍的炮,美國會那麼閑去搞一台會自己亂射的東西?

我很了解你的心情,在美國掠食者出來前我說可以拿模型機作戰場偵查很多人說我瘋了,在掠食者用飛彈打恐怖份子前我說模型機裝上炸彈有攻擊性很危險,也有一堆人說我瘋了,不過更瘋的是老美她們拿更小的模型機裝炸彈,你只是對於新科技的害怕而已

我可以問你一個問題嗎?可以打十幾公里的防空砲,面對AGN-88或是YJ-91有什麼功用?
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